on Apr 30, 2011

kingbee

Reply #89
kingbee

Well said there, but I do not think we have another 500 years here for self-remediation to play its roll. The powers that be will maintain anarchy in the Middle East for as long as it is so profitable to do so. I do not think that Islam is going asunder any time soon … but there will come a time when the Middle East has no more to be bleed away … and that time will not be a good one.

92

lulapilgrim

on May 07, 2011

BoobzTwo

reply 91

The powers that be will maintain anarchy in the Middle East for as long as it is so profitable to do so.

Alas, sadly, this seems to be the crux of the matter.

BoobzTwo

reply 91

but I do not think we have another 500 years here for self-remediation to play its roll.

The remedy is the way the Church would have it. Here is one of the latest articles on Libya which makes that point.

Prelate Questions Morality of Libya Bombings

Maghreb, European Bishops Stress Plight of Migrants

TRIPOLI, Libya, MAY 6, 2011 (Zenit.org).- The apostolic vicar of Tripoli is questioning the decision to bomb Libya, noting that peaceful methods should be primarily employed to resolve conflict.

Archbishop Giovanni Martinelli asserted, "I certainly do not want to interfere with the political activity of anyone, but I have a duty to declare that the bombings are immoral," Fides reported today.

On March 19, several countries launched bombing attacks on the Libyan military systems in Tripoli and elsewhere due to reports of massacres of Libyan protesters by Muammar Gaddafi, the country's leader for 42 years.

The prelate responded to critics who stated that he "should deal only with spiritual matters and that the bombings have been authorized by the United Nations."

He asserted that the United Nations, NATO and the European Union do not have "the moral authority to decide to bomb."

The archbishop stated: "If there are violations of human rights, I cannot use the same method to stop them. As a Christian I have to use peaceful methods, first of all dialogue."

He recalled: "I remember that Pope John Paul II established diplomatic relations with Libya, while it was under embargo.

"This is to demonstrate that the method to solve the problems are not even embargoes and wars, but diplomatic dialogue."

Archbishop Martinelli expressed support of a statement by the Episcopal Mixed Commission Mediterranean-Maghreb-Europe that underlined the priority of political dialogue.

Episcopal commission

The commission meeting, which ended Wednesday in Tunisia, gathered bishops of Maghreb with others from France and Spain.

The final declaration of the participants emphasized the plight of migrants fleeing the conflict zones, while also affirming that "no one can control the consequences of armed intervention that also affect innocent victims."

The commission noted, "On the issue of migrants, Europe is trying to put into practice a drastic protection that does not always go in the direction of justice and often becomes a source of exclusion and discrimination."

It added, "On this delicate issue there are two attitudes in contrast: that of various politicians who wish to guarantee almost exclusively the safety and security of its citizens, unfortunately, often for electoral reasons, and that of the disciples of the Gospel that [...] want [...] to serve primarily the people and defend their dignity."

The statement continued: "These two points of view could find a meeting point if the money used to protect the borders were used to develop at least food self-sufficiency of the countries of origin of migrants and if resources were secured to allow dignified life for all citizens. The latter would not be forced to leave at the risk of life."

The bishops concluded by addressing the topic of Christian-Muslim dialogue, stating that "priority should be given to the encounter between people from different horizons that often allows a truer and more spiritual exchange."

93

Leauki

on May 09, 2011

BoobzTwo

reply 90

Quoting Leauki, reply 88Reply #88
Leauki
Just as you said, but try and chat about why or even how these travesties continue to permeate the third world … good luck there. JU commenters seem to pool around the concept that The American Government is righteous beyond reproach, being concerned only for the betterment of the ignorant unfortunate peasants peoples around the world. But then complain and cry about the failure of said same government from ‘its blind-to-the-public concerns’ to ‘working to destroy the fabric of the country’ go figure. Kind of wants to make one move elsewhere where their concerns would become important to the USG again … unless they don’t appreciate the process and devastation the introduction of capitalism has always delivered and the corruption that has followed all under the guise of freedom and democracy … you know those things that are not afford the middle and lower class peasants Americans. Got to smell something rotten in Denmark with all this nonsense!

The American government has nothing to do with any of these things. Darfur is not an American project, the Sudanese government is not an American ally. At least in the Middle-East the dictators who murder their people are not American clients.

The only thing we can blame the US government for is that it ignores Africa. Under George W. Bush that had started to change, but under Obama the old ways came back.

I guess most people who are worried about Africa seem to think that the single most important thing they can do to help is to convince American patriots that their belief in the ultimate good in American government is stupid. But how does that help???

94

Leauki

on May 09, 2011

The archbishop stated: "If there are violations of human rights, I cannot use the same method to stop them. As a Christian I have to use peaceful methods, first of all dialogue."

The archbishop is an idiot. Nobody proposes that we use the "same method" to stop human rights violations. What the archbishop wants to say is that he believes in the moral equivalence of murdering children and killing terrorists. But I refuse to believe that, for example, Jewish children are just as bad as non-Jewish terrorists. It's antisemitism.

95

Leauki

on May 09, 2011

"This is to demonstrate that the method to solve the problems are not even embargoes and wars, but diplomatic dialogue."

Did the idiot explain why diplomatic dialogue was a better solution in the 1940s than war? An early war against the Nazis would have saved millions of lives. Diplomatic dialogue created the Holocaust.

96

lulapilgrim

on May 09, 2011

Lula posts:

TRIPOLI, Libya, MAY 6, 2011 (Zenit.org).- The apostolic vicar of Tripoli is questioning the decision to bomb Libya, noting that peaceful methods should be primarily employed to resolve conflict.

The archbishop stated: "If there are violations of human rights, I cannot use the same method to stop them. As a Christian I have to use peaceful methods, first of all dialogue."

Leauki posts:

Nobody proposes that we use the "same method" to stop human rights violations.

Wake up Leauki. Bombing Libya IS exactly the "same method" the apostolic vicar of Tripoli is talking about. The "same method" is vengeance for vengeance. The "same method" of inflicting injury or punishment is a seemingly never ending cycle in the those regions of the Middle East and Africa.

And the cycle continues....This time around it's Gaddafi and his forces who in various ways violate human rights and to stop them, the "same method" response is to inflict injury or punishment by bombing Libya.

.................

The archbishop is an idiot.

So says you.

Diplomatic dialogue created the Holocaust.

Sin created the Holocaust and it is sin that is destroying the world today.

97

Dr Guy

on May 09, 2011

Leauki

reply 93

The American government has nothing to do with any of these things. Darfur is not an American project, the Sudanese government is not an American ally. At least in the Middle-East the dictators who murder their people are not American clients.

The only thing we can blame the US government for is that it ignores Africa. Under George W. Bush that had started to change, but under Obama the old ways came back.

I guess most people who are worried about Africa seem to think that the single most important thing they can do to help is to convince American patriots that their belief in the ultimate good in American government is stupid. But how does that help???

Good response. You can see how many of the obama apologists (using his name is only grouping them since he gives a face to the movement) want everything to be America's fault. And they will prove it through the 7 degrees of separation. Nothing will change their mind just like no one can convince the truthers of 9-11. They believe because they hate America.

98

BoobzTwo

on May 09, 2011

Leauki

reply 93

I guess most people who are worried about Africa seem to think that the single most important thing they can do to help is to convince American patriots that their belief in the ultimate good in American government is stupid. But how does that help???

Africa holds no dear spot in my heart ... but the people (all) do. That is what is wrong ... the morality of the country. If there were something of value in Darfur ... our USDA humanitarianism would make it an American project ... they are very good at helping people who don't want it while turning a blind eye on those that really do.

The only real opposition in the world with a chance to stop this run away government is the people … so they have to be informed.

99

BoobzTwo

on May 09, 2011

Dr Guy

reply 97

Good response. You can see how many of the Obama apologists (using his name is only grouping them since he gives a face to the movement) want everything to be America's fault. And they will prove it through the 7 degrees of separation. Nothing will change their mind just like no one can convince the truthers of 9-11. They believe because they hate America.

You are so cavalier with the use of the term “because they hate America” it sickens me. What is it YOU think AMERICA IS … that people like me hate? Obama apologists … you are being funny. If I ever mentioned him it would have been in a derogative way … just like I do for Bush. It must suck to have your life guided seemingly by politics alone … whose guiding light is the USG, go figure. The Human spider Web (Check figure), my of my, that explains a lot … I guess?

100

BoobzTwo

on May 09, 2011

Leauki

reply 94

The archbishop stated: "If there are violations of human rights, I cannot use the same method to stop them. As a Christian I have to use peaceful methods, first of all dialogue."

Lula, these were his words ... and you are manipulating them … why? … To what ends? Maybe this will help here?

lulapilgrim

reply 92

"I certainly do not want to interfere with the political activity of anyone, but I have a duty to declare that the bombings are immoral,"

or this …

lulapilgrim

reply 92

The archbishop stated: "If there are violations of human rights, I cannot use the same method to stop them. As a Christian I have to use peaceful methods, first of all dialogue."

This is all pretty pacifistic to me???

lulapilgrim

reply 96

Wake up Leauki. Bombing Libya IS exactly the "same method" the apostolic vicar of Tripoli is talking about. The "same method" is vengeance for vengeance. The "same method" of inflicting injury or punishment is a seemingly never ending cycle in the those regions of the Middle East and Africa.

What I couldn’t find was this “same method” or “vengeance for vengeance”??? Sure sounds like an eye for an eye and all that nonsense to me. If you are making the claim that the Archbishop was promoting war, that info had to come from somewhere else?

101

Leauki

on May 10, 2011

lulapilgrim

reply 96

The archbishop is an idiot.

So says you.

I also explained why he is an idiot.

Incidendentally, American and other forces are enforcing a no-fly zone over Libya, not "bombing it". And I didn't even say whether I supported that action.

102

Leauki

on May 10, 2011

BoobzTwo

reply 98

Africa holds no dear spot in my heart ... but the people (all) do. That is what is wrong ... the morality of the country. If there were something of value in Darfur ... our USDA humanitarianism would make it an American project ... they are very good at helping people who don't want it while turning a blind eye on those that really do.
The only real opposition in the world with a chance to stop this run away government is the people … so they have to be informed.

Then go and vote for a Bush-like candidate next year.

Bush increased aid to Africa and spoke up about Darfur. He was beginning to do the right thing.

Obama went back to the old strategy of sending aid primarily to white people.

I am already doing a little bit:

http://www.damanga.org/newsroom/press_releases/2009/letter_to_damanga_friends_and_supporters.html

Not enough, because I am neither a good person nor an idealist.

I am just doing more than the anti-America crowd. The morality of the country is your morality, not somebody else's. You have to change, not other people.

You are talking about opposition and "the people" as if any of that was needed. It is not. We don't need an opposition to oppressive western governments, least of all the American government, because western governments are not the problem. They are merely too stupid and short-sighted to be the solution.

We live in a world where it is a scandal if a white Gazan isn't allowed to cross the border into Israel to kill people but everything is fine if hundreds of thousands of Africans are killed by the allies of the Gazan who happen to be allowed to cross the border into Darfur.

And what is the solution? "The people" must be the "opposition" to some government. How does that help?

103

Leauki

on May 10, 2011

The archbishop stated: "If there are violations of human rights, I cannot use the same method to stop them. As a Christian I have to use peaceful methods, first of all dialogue."

Bombing military installations is not a "human rights violation". The Bishop is lying. If he is not an idiot, he is a liar.

104

BoobzTwo

on May 10, 2011

Leauki - Viva la revolution! Until Americans look inward for a lot of their answers, they will continue to blame everyone else for the ulterior motives and actions of the USG … of which most people are clueless. Are you implying that you are a bad person? I agree ideology is little more today than someone else’s direction … sort of like theology where outside the loop views, opinions and questions are not tolerated or even acknowledged as anything besides hypocrisy or some conspiracy or other, go figure.. Cannot argue against the bible any more you can the USG‘s profane ideology because it is not allowed???

Leauki

reply 102

I am just doing more than the anti-America crowd. The morality of the country is your morality, not somebody else's. You have to change, not other people

You got me here but I see no correlation between my morals (are yours different?) and the lacking morality of the USG … ? To me, morals are based on what somebody's conscience suggests is right or wrong, rather than on what rules or the law says should be done. I do not believe the USG has a conscience at all. It is just politics to them, so sad. How does one go about changing their morals, by redefining what is ‘right and wrong’ or ‘good and bad’ to correlate them with the USG’s lack of the same? I do not understand???

The vilest anti-American crowd is the USG and the neo-politicians that control it as evidenced by their disregard for the will of the people.

105

lulapilgrim

on May 10, 2011

Leauki

reply 101

Incidendentally, American and other forces are enforcing a no-fly zone over Libya, not "bombing it"....

News articles indicate that you are incorrect.

Check this out:

http://www.armytimes.com/news/2011/03/ap-clinton-no-fly-zone-means-bombing-libya-sites-031711/

The first few lines are:

Clinton: No-fly zone means bombing Libya sites

The Associated Press
Posted : Thursday Mar 17, 2011 17:12:11 EDT

WASHINGTON — Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton said Thursday that a U.N. no-fly zone over Libya would require bombing targets inside the country, and a deputy acknowledged that Moammar Gadhafi’s forces were making huge gains against the opposition.

Clinton gave her assessment during a visit to Tunisia and ahead of a planned U.N. vote, making clear the risk of possible military intervention as world powers considered broader steps to protect civilians and pressure the Libyan leader.

.......................................

Here is part of another story from the AP..

Libya bombing called successful; endgame unclear

By ROBERT BURNS, AP National Security Writer Robert Burns, Ap National Security Writer – Sun Mar 20, 7:49 pm ET

WASHINGTON – The U.S. on Sunday claimed initial success two days into an assault on Libya that included some of the heaviest firepower in the American arsenal — long-range bombers designed for the Cold War — but American officials said Sunday it was too early to define the international military campaign's endgame.

The top U.S. military officer suggested that Libyan strongman Moammar Gadhafi might stay in power in spite of the military assault aimed at protecting civilians, calling into question the larger objective of an end to Gadhafi's erratic 42-year rule. Other top U.S. officials have suggested that a weakened and isolated Gadhafi could be ripe for a coup.

A second wave of attacks, mainly from American fighters and bombers, targeted Libyan ground forces and air defenses, following an opening barrage Saturday of sea-launched Tomahawk cruise missiles. Defense Secretary Robert Gates said the U.S. expects to turn control of the mission over to a coalition — probably headed either by the French and British or by NATO — "in a matter of days."

"We judge these strikes to have been very effective in significantly degrading the regime's air defense capability," Gortney said. "We believe his forces are under significant stress and suffering from both isolation and a good deal of confusion."

Gortney's assessment suggested that further strikes on the scale of Saturday's heavy assault with sea-launched Tomahawk cruise missiles may not be needed, although he did not rule out further attacks.

The systems targeted most closely were Libya's SA-5 surface-to-air missiles, Russian-made weaponry that could pose a threat to allied aircraft many miles off the Libyan coastline. Libya has a range of other air defense weaponry, including portable surface-to-air missiles that are more difficult to eliminate by bombing.

Sunday's attacks, carried out by a range of U.S. aircraft — including Air Force B-2 stealth bombers as well as Marine Harrier jets flying from an amphibious assault ship in the Mediterranean — demonstrated the predominance of U.S. firepower in the international coalition. By striking Libyan ground forces, coalition forces also showed that they are going beyond the most frequently discussed goal of establishing a no-fly zone over the country.

A military official said the B-2s flew 25 hours in a round trip from Whiteman Air Force Base in Missouri and dropped 45 2,000-pound bombs.

U.S. missiles and warplanes were clearly in the lead Saturday and Sunday, but Gates said the plan remains for the U.S. to step back once the threat from the Libyan military is reduced.

Libya's claims of civilians among the dead from the strikes appeared to make Arab countries nervous, after the Arab League took the unprecedented step of calling for a no-fly zone. On Sunday, Arab League chief Amr Moussa criticized the missile strikes, saying they went beyond what the Arab body had supported.

"What happened differs from the no-fly zone objectives," Moussa told reporters in Cairo. "What we want is civilians' protection, not shelling more civilians."

................................................

So it seems that the good archbishop knows what he is talking about....Libya hasbeen/ is being bombed.

Lula posted:

Leauki

reply 103

The archbishop stated: "If there are violations of human rights, I cannot use the same method to stop them. As a Christian I have to use peaceful methods, first of all dialogue."

Leauki

reply 103

Bombing military installations is not a "human rights violation". The Bishop is lying. If he is not an idiot, he is a liar.

It's clearly not only military bases that are being bombed....civilians are being killed too.

The archbishop hasn't lied about anything. He would like the conflict in Libya resolved using "peaceful methods" beginning with dialogue. not by vengeance for vengeance or eye for an eye methods.